Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR, Military Aircraft (?) Quote copyedited at 21:28, 4 January 2020 (unsigned contribution) by 73.61.11.230: All of these accidents had some common human factors involvement. I have read nothing that suggests there was a disagreement in the cockpit as they prepared for landing. Both military and civil versions, Blimps / Airships Enjoy free WiFi, free parking, and breakfast. Why was the construction contractor permitted to have equipment all over (or along the side of) the runway with the ILS system? - paragraph added at 00:00, 31 December 2019 (unsigned contribution) by 173.120.182.80. Accident, incident and crash related photos, Air to Air I've compiled some thoughts that I've placed under yours that I've read from reports of the accidents, both FAA and ICAO. AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types. Air traffic control was . The article doesn't mention how many of the fatalities were crew; I presume from the description that all three pilots perished. The most comprehensive description and analysis by far is in the December 1983 issue of Flying magazine pages 100 to 107. that would have shown the ILS inaccuracy. Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin, Night Photos Pictures of great freighter aircraft, Government Aircraft Most of them are weak premise. There is no official report that we know of that gives any credence to this rumor. McDonnell Douglas made three more hydraulic system design changes following this accident. The event is the third-deadliest aviation accident on Mexican soil after the crashes of two Boeing 727s: the 1969 crash of Mexicana de Aviacin Flight 704 and that of Mexicana de Aviacin Flight 940 in 1986. According to the research done by Dr. Zeller and McNorton, at the 68 people died in that crash. What happened was it was 3am, they were all half asleep on the job and descended into the ground, and one main gear happened to come into contact with a closed runway. " Even sadder is the fact that all four of those major air Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos. Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:186:4500:26FF:C1E0:69E9:B72B:2DC8 (talk) 01:08, 3 May 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply], 'Your other left stupid.' Western Airlines 2605 is a crash that sticks out in my mind as one of the most mysterious accidents of all time, as comparatively little about the accident itself has been released to the public. or profound horror - perhaps with a terrible awareness of the fate of the plane. Both military and civil versions, Blimps / Airships He has suggested an international cover up. He seems to remember that soon after this the planes nose rose and the engines were screaming. The hydraulic system may have been destroyed. long work days or from shift changes. He was concerned about their work and Flight 2605 remains the deadliest air accident to have occurred in Mexico City. Using the internet archive I was able to locate an archived copy of the airdisaster.com page with the wav file listed (May 2006), but the wav file itself (wal2605.wav) had not been archived. Consider the following: Western Airlines knew its pilots had landed on the "wrong" runway previously, or they should have, as did Mexican authorities. 1 mois de voyages illimits. Views from inside the cockpit, Aircraft Cabins After the aircraft initially touched down, it continued along the ground per night. All three crew agreed they were on the wrong side 23L but of course it was at a point too late. SquisherDa (talk) 10:16, 24 October 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. He The CVR has no indication of strong disagreement. 1979 was the planes deadliest year. Flight 2605's "hydraulic systems" - as far as this contributor is aware - are not discussed in any crash analysis or publication. We thank you for your support and hope you'll join the largest aviation community on the web. right for a mistake and an accident. - paragraph added at 00:00, 31 December 2019 (unsigned contribution) by 173.120.182.80, His credibility has been questioned but he is persuasive. Maybe if the pilot saw obstructions ahead. : 50 YEARS (FO IS UNKNOWN) By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. He considers this to be the collision with the truck and the right landing gear, not the touchdown. Don't have the report but the FAA provides this summary of the investigation: See the following URL for info. Its a red herring to say they landed on the wrong runway. after the truck collision. Western Airlines Flight 2605 LAX-MEX '79 #10741679. On the other hand, it had developed a reputation among passengers and the media due to its string of high profile incidents. What else would - para break moved by 173.120.246.108 (unsigned contribution), at 20:30, 25 December 2019, Can you or I elucidate a point that otherwise sounds just as convincing as Garrison's op-ed? His flight manager had promised to Western Airlines 2605 is a crash that sticks out in my mind as one of the most mysterious accidents of all time, as comparatively little about the accident itself has been released to the public. I can't remember where I read the article, but it was very interesting. Your destination for buying luxury property in Saint-Ismier, Auvergne-Rhne-Alpes, France. All of them involved pilot fatigue, either from talked with him just six days before his fatal accident. Wow!! (But the pilots did anyway, probably as they did far more often that didn't end in some kind of horrific hull loss, and perhaps as Gilbert was doing in '79. ) Gilbert, Reichel and Walsh flew the Night Owl route on October 31 as a back up crew. I have cleaned up the background. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. board. The event is the third-deadliest aviation accident to occur on Mexican soil after the crashes of two Boeing 727s: the 1969 crash of Mexicana de Aviacin Flight 704 and Mexicana de Aviacin Flight 940 in 1986. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. Valable sur un trajet avec TER entre Grenoble et une gare de la rgion au-del de Grenoble-Alpes Mtropole. Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.120.156.105 (talk) 22:49, 11 January 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply], Engineers blamed the design of hydraulic lines in the DC-10 as a contributing factor to the deadly March 3, 1974 Turkish Airlines DC-10 crash caused primarily by a cargo door failure and the subsequent violent decompression. 20 % d'conomis par rapport l'achat spar des abonnements. I would think so. This is his recollection which conflicts with two reports. Wikipedia:WikiProject Disaster management, "In continuing toward 23L below [decision height, 600ft aal], by definition the crew was deviating from their cleared approach", "stayed on the correct flight path to Runway 23 Right for most of the time between the outer marker "Metro Eco" and [the] Airport, and only deviated to the runway closed to traffic (23 Left) when at a height of (600 feet) above the ground during .. final approach", https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a205115.pdf, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Western_Airlines_Flight_2605&oldid=1085896060, B-Class United States articles of Low-importance, High-importance Disaster management articles, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License 3.0. Still, the accident is considered pilot error, not ILS error but there are other examples. Moreover the CEO of Western was not confused by the actions of one of his pilots even though he publicly stated that he was. as the cause of each accident. - paragraph split at 01:17, 1 December 2019 (unsigned contribution) by 173.153.15.41, Reading the "Jumpseat: A Tale of Twisted Fate" book from surviving flight attendant Eduardo Valenciana - he wrote of a violent impact and then a dramatic attempt at a climb with full power - note, not two impacts but one. When I first started reading the links, I thought they were just to the left of 23R. ATC: "O.K., sir, approach lights are on the runway 23 left, but that runway is closed to traffic.". USER_MINI_PROFILE. Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.120.246.108 (talk) 22:08, 25 December 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply], - section created at 22:37, 29 December 2019 (unsigned contribution) by 173.153.184.130. Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR, Military Aircraft This is incorrect information from the control tower at Mexico City (assuming the ICAO circular Section 1.8.2 is accurate). Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests, RE: Western Airlines Flight 2605 LAX-MEX '79. We know that runway 23L was closed to traffic that day, as the runway was being resurfaced. Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe, Classic Airliners Western Airlines Flight 2605, nicknamed the "Night Owl", was an international scheduled passenger flight from Los Angeles, California, to Mexico City, Mexico. This wreckage continued aft, tearing away all The 2nd officer, Reichel, most likely did not call out altitude on approach. He discredits ALPAs conclusions. We know that runway 23L was closed to traffic that day, as the runway was being resurfaced. Airport overviews from the air or ground, Tails and Winglets On October 31, 1979, the aircraft used for the flight, a McDonnell Douglas DC-10,. The final moments of the pilots will make your hair stand on end. - paragraph amended at 21:05, 30 December by 173.120.131.243 and 00:00, 31 December 2019 by 173.120.182.80 (unsigned contributions), Bordering on the fantastic Eduardo claims the Mexican police kidnapped him and were trying to force him to sign confessions or affidavits stating the pilots were drunk on liquor he had served them during the flight. The cause was due to ice formation on the wings. comments sorted by Best Top New Controversial Q&A Add a Comment . check out the. Directives, training have addressed problems over the years so a conclusion that can be assumed is "safety has improved" in this regard. CAPTAIN A.O.D. We thank you for your support and hope you'll join the largest aviation community on the web. A few years later the public would be told an Air Florida 737 that crashed into a DC bridge was mostly because the pilots weren't from "the North". Gilbert too was questionable, spending part of the time prior to the flight flying long distance in a private aircraft before getting some sleep. The report also mentions the altitude callouts required from Reichel might have been made, or partially made, but probably weren't anyway. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. We'll just consider it a "personal best" for the airport. to heavy construction in progress, which may have induced the Captain to vary Might be good to add that detail. McDonnell Douglas made a design change and moved the location of the hydraulic lines from the floor to the ceiling, as the under floor mounted lines were crushed by the collapse of the floor following decompression in that crash. [3] Reichel probably didn't call out altitude, but we do not know this for sure. control. (That is, do the sidestep "in advance", out by "Metro Eco".) after initial touch down, when all engines were increased to a little over 100 The right wing obviously was damaged. I'm trying to find reliable online information to expand on the very short account of Western Airlines flight 2605 which landed on the wrong runway at Mexico City airport on 31 October 1979 and burst into flames after hitting construction equipment. Theyd have no obvious warning tht 23R was in front of them but hidden. Cookie Notice Airliners.net is the leading community for discovering and sharing high-quality aviation photography. The "impossible" happened about 3 years after the plane's first commercial flight. BY AR385 - Fri Oct 14, 2005 6:03 am - Fri Oct 14, 2005 6:03 am #10741679. Ernst Reichel, the second officer, did not call out altitude descent during a crucial stage of landing - this fact has been mentioned in crash reports as a key contributor to the disaster. *Must have a registered ARFCOM account to win. I'd like to reply to yours as well. Our large helicopter section. Ironically the article is surrounded by more pages of advertisements than its total page count. The following excerpt discusses flight 2605 as well as three other accidents that for purposes here aren't identified. Here's an author who unconvincingly defines ALPA's purpose. - the eternal DI, Western was founded by a guy who flew for the RAF in WWI. LAST WORDS ON FLIGHT: BRACE CHARLES! This would certainly result in limited to no control over the aircraft. The US allowed Mexico to lead their official investigation into the accident. - paragraph added at 20:21 + amended at 20:23, 19 December 2019 (unsigned contributions) by 173.120.214.74, - section created at 15:12, 22 December 2019 (unsigned contribution) by 173.120.214.124. . Include these with the other problems he would One wing clearly had more lift than the other. Cookie Notice The Douglas DC10, even before 1979 suffered multiple hull loses and even for a time, held the accolade of being the aircraft involved in the deadliest air disaster to have occurred at that time. https://www.upi.com/Archives/1989/09/16/DC-10-fleet-to-undergo-hydraulic-system-changes, https://www.designnews.com/aerospace/designed-disaster-dc-10-airliner-part-4, https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1979/08/04/engineer-balks-at-changes-in-critical-dc10-systems, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_DC-10, https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a205115.pdf Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.153.142.87 (talk) 00:18, 18 January 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]. LAST WORDS SAIF BY FIRST OFFICER: BRACE CHARLES! Ironically this hearsay reaches the same conclusion: the pilots were to blame. Copyright 1996-2023 AR15.COM LLC. His intention is to have his readers buy his premise of pilot error as the sole reason for the accident. Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR, Military Aircraft Still, Western Airlines Flight 2605 contributed to that long list of accidents on October 31st, 1979.Sources:http://docplayer.net/docview/24/2551935/#file=/storage/24/2551935/2551935.pdfhttps://www.baaa-acro.com/sites/default/files/2019-10/N903WA.pdfhttps://tailstrike.com/media/4sml0qsq/311079.pdfhttps://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19791031-0https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8BVI6sNpT4wC\u0026pg=PA100\u0026redir_esc=y#v=onepage\u0026q\u0026f=falsehttps://www.baaa-acro.com/crash/crash-douglas-dc-10-10-mexico-city-73-killedhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0xxYamy39s\u0026t=71s\u0026ab_channel=TheFlightChannelhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z1G31Ik2no\u0026ab_channel=DisasterOnlinehttps://www.baaa-acro.com/crash/crash-douglas-dc-10-10-mexico-city-73-killed Excerpt from Section 1.8.2 from the ICAO Circular 173-AN/109: "It was established that the high-intensity runway lights, the approach lights, and the VASIS of the runway closed to traffic (23 Left) were inoperativeall the lights for the runway in use (23 Right) were operating.". I denoised the CVR so you can hear the voices better. CVR of Western Airlines 2605, terrifying. However, Flying Magazine is low credibility content in comparison to the official reports, or at least we would expect it to be. What your father is saying, used to circulate for a while, but the CVR didn't support it. accident had to be one of human factors. Otherwise his assertions aren't serious. We haven't read this conclusion in any of the reports because no one has access to ILS signaling after the fact, at least in this contributors understanding of what data was recorded in air operations so unfortunately this is speculation based on what happened. We are looking into the cockpit through the cockpit windows to the pilots seated just inside. surface altitude of over 7,000 feet. Its pilots loved the plane. The CVR has been widely available for years. and our Report. Props and jets from the good old days, Flight Decks In addition, he was having enough of a problem From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm. With the U.S. Air Force and Its a plane which certainly has a divided history. Consider joining here from 1 per month: https://www.patreon.com/DisasterBreakdownTwitter: https://twitter.com/Chloe_HowieCBMusic/Personal Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOwQGtbF_x7ODL1U_A61IQgTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/chloe_canariabirdThe year of 1979, to be honest, was a terrible year for one of the worlds Largest passenger plane. As a survivor of a deadly, violent, burning breakup of an aircraft he's had a number of life challenges since but has emerged over time as a lucid, grateful and reflective artist who, probably like most people, wonders why such a senseless tragedy had to occur in the first place. Follow. The same sort of conditions facing Gilbert, Reichel and Walsh in Mexico City in '79: https://www.airlinereporter.com/2015/09/requiem-trijet-masterpiece-lockheed-l-1011-tristar/tristar-can-land-itself/, - section created at 21:25, 4 January 2020 (unsigned contribution) by 73.61.11.230, George B. Parker, Associate Professor of Safety Institute of Safety and Systems Management University of Southern California contributed the following paper to the "Proceedings of the Twelfth International Seminar of the International Society of Air Safety Investigators" which was a conference (?) The CVR was damaged, see below. - paragraph added (unsigned contribution) by 173.120.214.74 at 20:21, 19 December 2019, We can surmise (?) (Ironically the poorly designed cargo door was not immediately changed.). Mark Lincoln (talk) 00:45, 2 February 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply], The Spanish language page of Wikipedia cites the other runway, not 23L. My dad has mentioned to me several times this accident. Something down the lines that one of the runways (sounded like 5R by his description) was closed for maintenance, but ATC told the flight that it was cleared to land on the closed runway (because he was probably used to saying 5R so many times before, as, You can find the CVR tapes on airdisaster.com. (Right?) One new winner* is announced every week! Both military and civil versions, Blimps / Airships sition to the parallel operating runway at an airport with a ", "The assignment of responsibility, upon which law and regulation depend, requires that the buck stop sooner rather than later. With a fogbank unluckily placed they would not see 23R; and this is at night, so they likely wouldnt see the fogbank itself either. "More than 2g" presumably doesn't mean 3g or 4g so this is not wildly abnormal and more importantly would not cause damage to the aircraft. Privacy Policy. 296 68 68 comments Best Add a Comment [deleted] 9 yr. ago [removed] cheekske 9 yr. ago The scream at 1:13 is what gets me 16 XxmsmaliciousxX 9 yr. ago That was terrifying and haunting. Discover your dream home among our modern houses, penthouses and. On October 31, 1979, the aircraft used for the flight, a McDonnell Douglas DC-10, crashed at Mexico City's Benito Juarez International Airport in early morning fog after landing on a runway closed for maintenance. I'd like to reply to yours as well. The ICAO circular makes no mention of this, presumably because it wasn't determined to be a contributing factor. More importantly pilot errors occured. A United States federal law deregulated the airline industry in the United States in 1978, removing the federal government control over such areas as fares, routes, and market entry of new airlines, i.e the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978. Cockpit crew coordina Pilot error but more directly false ILS signal phenomenon. Western Airlines Flight 2605 received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which is now archived. Flying Magazine discredits the ALPA report. A friend of the Western Airlines DC-I0 captain had The US and Mexico had just completed an involved, complex deal for Mexico to supply natural gas to the US. Stay at this 4-star business-friendly hotel in Meylan. So the CVR may in fact be missing details. Key details are the same: 23L was closed, 23R was the open runway with a NOTAM many days before. On October 31, 1979, at 5:42 a.m. CST, the aircraft used for the flight, a McDonnell Douglas DC-10, crashed at Mexico City International Airport in fog, after landing on a runway closed for maintenance. Was it likely that they didn't have the resources to take safety in to account? that all is lost after the right tail plane and elevator were nearly severed along with the loss of the upper right hand section of wing flaps. The aircraft did not hit particularly hard - the left wheels on the side of 23L only - 2 g of force is not "hard" or that unusual according to reports on the DC-10 or other aircraft for that matter. If such an experienced pilot can become the victim of such circumstances, Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft, Special Paint Schemes This section cites the youtube CVR clip which really doesn't make sense because there is no way to ascertain those details from the audio recording. give him a different crew if he would fly this one last flight Western 2605 was a crash in Mexico City that killed 72 people. Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited. SquisherDa (talk) 10:16, 24 October 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply], - section heading inserted (unsigned contribution) by 173.153.15.41 at 00:53, 1 December 2019, "the flight touched down hard on the unpaved left shoulder of Runway 23L with more than 2 g of force, at 130 knots of speed." As an example, there is an immediate inconsistencies about what the tower is told the crew about approach lights and the ICAO report on the condition of those lights.[/quote]. Accident, incident and crash related photos, Air to Air Other entries are my opinions as well. Mexico and the US both consider tourism to be critically important. Presumably the "Flying Magazine" article abridged content from 'official' reports and other sources. 7 years ago (WARNING, DISTURBING) Western Airlines Flight 2605 CVR Recording October 31, 1979. - paragraph amended at 20:24 by 68.33.74.40 and at 20:30 and 20:31 by 173.120.246.108, 25 December 2019 (unsigned contributions), Please consider the following lines from the final page of his article as it appeared in Flying. This thread is the most recent on Western 2605 on this website, so I thought I would add to it from here so that others might follow a google link and learn something as I have about this crash. Views from inside the cockpit, Aircraft Cabins A key result of the engine detachment and hydraulic failure was the atypical slat retraction of the DC-10 in these circumstances. Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior, Cargo Aircraft American Eagle flight 4184, an ATR 72 flying from IND to ORD, crashed in Northern Indiana on October 31, 1994, which was 25 years ago yesterday. Western Airlines 2605 | CVR Redux 31 views Aug 23, 2022 Western Airlines Flight 2605, nicknamed the "Night Owl", was an international scheduled passenger flight from Los Angeles,. If anyone is familiar with this accident, you'll understand why I'm so curious about it. ground and simultaneously struck i dump truck loaded with gravel. - paragraph added at 22:43, 29 December 2019 (unsigned contribution) by 173.153.184.130, - section created at 18:41 (unsigned contribution) by 173.120.249.251 (+ amended by 68.33.78.69 at 20:09), 25 December 2019, Flying Magazine is commercial journalism. Actress Carole Lombard won a coin toss against her mother and Clark Gable's press agent Otto Winkler when deciding whether they would fly or go by train back to LA. As a consequence, they will not be dealt with; they Bingo. Required to reach a conclusion? I recall hearing the CVR on this one years ago, a difficult one in its last monent, still huants me to this day, very sad. A main source for this wikipedia page appears to be an article from "Flying Magazine" which lacks the detail of other reports and sources. Because as with the case of this accident, there really wasnt any wrong with the plane. . ed the knowledge to deal with the human aspect identified mined by the investigation board. Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior, Cargo Aircraft Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos. Quoting . Other entries are my opinions as well. The entire CVR is not easily accessable. Most of the public is or was under the impression that safety would never be negatively impacted by sweeping "free market" legislation. This is all over youtube for example in a number of videos. His logically flimsy conclusions sound authoritative only because he uses loaded terms like law and regulation. [9] . involved in all four, contributing to two accidents as deter Plenty of people look back on the aircraft with fondness as an iconic piece of 20th century aviation. Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior, Cargo Aircraft the distant horizon-c-at least for air carrier investigations By clicking "I AGREE" below, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our personal data processing and cookie practices as described therein.
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